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goniagnostus goniagnostus is a male


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Red Kettneraspis pigra Reply to this Post Post Reply with Quote Edit/Delete Posts Report Post to a Moderator       Go to the top of this page

I came upon this image on the internet of a very red specimen labeled as Kettneraspis pigra. However, now I can't find where it came from! The color is amazing to me. Anyone know the origin of the red color? Where the specimen is found? Is it actually a Kettneraspis species? Does anyone have a better (but still red) specimen than this one?
Many thanks!


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Sam [goniagnostus]
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Xiphogonium Xiphogonium is a male
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Sam, that piece is from my collection. It comes from Ouihlane, Region de Meknes in the Tafilalt in Morocco.

Michael

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08.10.2007 13:18 Xiphogonium is offline Send an Email to Xiphogonium Homepage of Xiphogonium Search for Posts by Xiphogonium Add Xiphogonium to your Buddy List YIM Account Name of Xiphogonium: xiphogonium
Jens Jens is a male
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Hi Sam,

I visited the Kettneraspis-site some years ago, it´s near to Timerzit (north from Jebel Issimour) in rosé-coloured Eifelian shales. We (Heiko and I) found several specimens of Kettneraspis, but no realy good one.
The site Mike mentioned I did´nt know, may be, there it´s possible to find similiar material there. So far I know, the material of this beautiful coloured red Kettneraspis-bugs on the market comes from this soft, purple shales in the Maider basin.

Greetings,

Jens
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Xiphogonium Xiphogonium is a male
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Indeed, as usual, the reported origin of this piece must be used with utmost care. However I received this little fellow from Dieter Holland, so we can put at least a certain amount of trust into it. But no guarantees, of course! ;-)

Michael

PS: BTW, the remarks I put into the database at the time was:

"Coming from extremely soft and fine lime shales containing a high concentration of Fe (Iron), Mg (Magnesium) and Sr (Strontium)"

Unfortunately I failed to note where this information came from ...... :-( Anyway the fossil is very fragile as is the whole matrix.

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08.10.2007 14:47 Xiphogonium is offline Send an Email to Xiphogonium Homepage of Xiphogonium Search for Posts by Xiphogonium Add Xiphogonium to your Buddy List YIM Account Name of Xiphogonium: xiphogonium
Xiphogonium Xiphogonium is a male
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Here is a way better picture of this particular specimen:

Xiphogonium has attached these images (downsized versions):
P1010011.jpg P1010010.jpg



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08.10.2007 15:20 Xiphogonium is offline Send an Email to Xiphogonium Homepage of Xiphogonium Search for Posts by Xiphogonium Add Xiphogonium to your Buddy List YIM Account Name of Xiphogonium: xiphogonium
goniagnostus goniagnostus is a male


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They are remarkable specimens (positive and negative), then, and perhaps yours are among the best preserved to come out of the region. Although they live on your website, would you mind if some day I highlight the matched pair as a Trilobite of the Month? I suppose the red color then is some kind of iron compound? Or perhaps a Strontium dye? :]

Hmmm looking at the pygidial spine patterns, do you think these are really Kettneraspis? I suppose so, though the major spines are not much larger than the minor spines on the margin.

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Xiphogonium Xiphogonium is a male
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Feel free to use these images at your discretion. :-)

The trilobite is actually marked as

?Leonaspis (Kettneraspis) pigra

in my database! ;)

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08.10.2007 21:59 Xiphogonium is offline Send an Email to Xiphogonium Homepage of Xiphogonium Search for Posts by Xiphogonium Add Xiphogonium to your Buddy List YIM Account Name of Xiphogonium: xiphogonium
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hi all,
Kettneraspis pigra is described (only by bad material) from bohemia; it´s doubt,that the red specimens belongs to pigra.Maybe its unimpossible to make a correct species name,because of the heavy tectonical condition.
we will wait,what is Allarts opinion.


bye

Andreas
10.10.2007 09:48
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Interesting specimens! They are certainly Kettneraspis rather than Leonaspis but one would really need a better preserved specimen to be sure. I agree with Andreas that despite the similarity in age, this is probably no Kettneraspis pigra. I'd label it Kettneraspis? sp. ;)
Allart
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pavel2 pavel2 is a male
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A short question - why not Odontopleura?

Pavel
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The IDing was done by Jim Cook, if my recollection is correct. However, I am always eager to correct information or make it more precise wherever possible.

Mike

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Hi Pavel,

Two reasons not to ID it as Odontopleura or Leonaspis but rather as Kettneraspis (again, I need to stress the word "RATHER" because there is no way of being sure with only this poorly preserved specimen to go on!):

- the 3rd thoracic segment appears to be macropleural (see, e.g., the long pleural spine in the extreme left of the picture)
- there appear to be two spines between the pygidial major border spines

Allart
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Thanks, Allart, for your opinion. I have revised the identification in my gallery to ?Kettneraspis sp. and took the opportunity to replace the old small image with the more complete bigger image.

Michael

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Glad to be of help! I must say that the morphologies of some Kettneraspis and Leonaspis from Morocco have surprised me. The differences do not always seem to be as straight-forward as in most European species. At the same time I am careful with the Moroccan material because falsification and even preparation can make a lot of difference. For instance, I've seen Kettneraspis pygidia prepped out like Leonaspis pygidia just by wishful thinking of the prepper... Prost

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Indeed, even Fortey stated in his book Trilobite! that he had been accused of prepping material to his own "gusto". <g> ;)

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goniagnostus goniagnostus is a male


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Thanks Allart:

I appreciate the diagnostics of 3rd macropleura thoracic segment (and I guess the first two segments of the red specimen pair are under the cephalon) and the single pair of spines between the major pygidial spines.

So, do I guess correctly that Leonaspis
1. does not bear a 3rd macropleural thoracic spine
2. bears >1 pair of spines between the major pygidial spines

Are there any other diagnostic features that distinguish the two?

Sam

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Hi Sam,

Unfortunately it is not that simple. I am not sure, but I think I recall having seen Leonaspis with a macropleural third segment. The pygidium should always make it easy to distinguish between Leonaspis and Kettneraspis (4 spines between major border spines points to Leonaspis; 2 spines here points to Kettneraspis). However, note that there are other similar genera with similar configurations: e.g. Edgecombeaspis, which basically looks like a Kettneraspis and also has 2 spines between the major border spines.

As for cephalic characters, there is an interesting list of potential apomorphies of Kettneraspis that were identified Adrain & Ramskold (1997, Journal of Paleontology). I always thought that their [anterior "pinching out" of the eye ridge] was a reliable one, but I have seen photographs of "Leonaspis" from Morocco that clearly show this feature as well (Mike, was that your specimen?). Then again, as I wrote here in one of the previous messages, I am very careful with trilobites from Morocco. There is usually no exact provenance known and especially from photographs there is no telling which is a complete or partial fake and which is an unaltered specimen.

Allart
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Diacanthaspis Diacanthaspis is a male
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The deposit on this locality seems to be deposits of a river delta or something like this. They are only some some KM wide, they are not any more exposed at the Jebel Rehris oder in Bou Dip
The age is for nearly sure lower Eifilian. For my feeling they are slightly some meter above the Emsian - Eifilian border. (It is sometime hard to determinate in the field the Ems - Eifel Border)

Here are some Pictures of the Locality and a Map where it is.


Greetings

Heiko

Diacanthaspis has attached these images (downsized versions):
map_tim_geo.jpg map_tim_srt.jpg Loc.jpg

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goniagnostus goniagnostus is a male


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Heheh ;) I guess it is always not as simple as it might seem with trilobites!
Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the distinguishing features Allart.
So, if I someday use this red specimen as a Trilobite of the Month, I think the label might look something like this:

Kettneraspis (?) sp.
(which?) Fm., M. Devonian (Eifelian)
Ouihlane, Meknes Region, Tafilalt, Morocco
Image courtesy Michael Kipping

So, is there any information on the specific Formation from which this interesting specimen comes? It seems that Mike or Jens might know!

Thanks!

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